A Very Candid Conversation with Ideofon

 

Askil Fangel(year unknown)

This is a new thing for me on this blog. I have interviewed artists who were just starting out, but not from their very beginning. Ideofon, a collaboration between singer-songwriter Askil Fangel and producer Kevin Skaggs, released their first single, “Bright White Light” in March 2023. At the time of this writing, Ideofon only has one song and a website that is a week old.

Because Ideofon is in its early stages, this will be the shortest intro I’ve written for the blog. It feels more natural to me to let the conversation I had with Askil and Kevin tell their own story of how this group began. I do want to thank Nichole Peters-Good from Get Good PR for setting up this interview. And I want to thank Askil and Kevin for letting me tell what is only the beginning of this group.

Jeff Cramer: Whoever wants to go first, what got you interested in music?

Askil Fangel: I can go first, if you’d like. So, my interest started around the age of thirteen. And before that I hadn't really cared about music at all whatsoever. My dad was really into music. He tried really hard to get me into all these artists, and I just didn’t show any interest. And then one day he played a U2 record. I was like, "What are these cool sounds? What is this stuff that this band is doing?" I had listened to rock and pop, but U2, especially in the nineties, were experimenting with different genres and incorporating all these different sounds into their music. For me, it wasn't as much about the lyrics or the messaging; it was just like "Okay, here is this band that's got all these crazy experimental sounds incorporated into their kind of pop-rock sound." It made me want to try to create something that would inspire me in the same way as they did. I started listening to other artists and getting into loads of different genres and stuff. And it kept evolving from there.

Kevin Skaggs:  I think mine started earlier than Askil's, to be honest. I have memories as far back as five years old. Of course, when you're a kid, you're simply hearing music—you're not necessarily making anything. I remember distinctly "Night on Disco Mountain" from the Saturday Night Fever soundtrack on 8-track cassette.      

JC:     Oh  yes.

KS:    [Laughs] But I was about five years old at that time. Fast forward a few years where  I played saxophone in the elementary school band. Then I did choir in middle school and in high school, and during that time, I was experimenting with synthesizers 4-track tape recorders, cool Depeche Mode kind of stuff. It was all about Depeche Mode. Fast forward a few more years and I took that to engineering school. After engineering school, I moved to Los Angeles and was part of the whole movie industry and the post-production scene, all the while I was still doing music. Eventually, I ended up meeting people, as you do in Los Angeles, and started doing music professionally. But I think that's another question, so . . .

JC:     How did you two meet?

AF:    From 2019 to 2021, I lived in London, and I now I live in Tromsø, Norway. I had studied media in London at a university, and I got to meet some really cool people there who were doing lots of different stuff. One of those people was  Secaina, and she did R&B, kind of rap, all this cool stuff that I wasn't necessarily doing myself, but she kind of introduced and brought me into that, and we made a song together. She knew Kevin, whom she had been working with on a previous project. Kevin heard one of the songs that we did, and I guess, Kevin, you can tell the rest of the story there.

KS:    I had befriended Secaina and also worked on some of her material doing production and mixing. With Secaina, everything she does is so interesting and vibrant. I had remixed her track, and then I heard Askil's voice, of course, isolated with the microphones, and I fell in love with it. I immediately was like "Who is this guy? Where is he at?" And she put us together on Zoom or something.

AF:    Email.

KS:    Oh yeah. And yeah, long story short, I somehow convinced him to send me a demo of one of the things he was working on, and he generously sent it to me. I was excited and just started doing something over it. Basically, our trust in each other started when he liked what I did, and I had already liked what he did. So, we kind of met in a musical way.

AF:    When Kevin first reached out, it was like some random guy just contacting me that I’d never heard of. Some random guy just sends me an email and was like "Hey, I like your music. Do you want to collab?" And I’m like, "Yeah, okay." At least that was my reaction, to just be like, "Yeah, sure. Uh . . . okay." Because I had no idea what to expect. I'm not very good at networking or meeting people, so to be honest, I came into it with a bit of skepticism. But like Kevin said, when I sent him my stuff and what he sent stuff it just elevated everything by a hundredfold. I was like "Okay, this is the real deal. This is a guy who knows what he's doing. He's got the experience. I've just got to jump on this and take that chance." And yeah, so we ended up making an album and promoting it.

JC:     Where did the name of Ideofon come from?

AF:    So, it's a Norwegian translation of the English word "ideophone." You can even say it like "i-de-o-phone."  It’s sort of—I don't know if you’d say scientific—but “ideophone” a collective term for sounds that can be described, like "ooh" or "whoosh," like sounds that you can spell out. That's an ideophone, basically. I just really liked that name. It just kind of stuck. It's something I had in the back of my mind for a project for a while. And then, when this turned into something real, it was just like, "Oh, I need to give it a name . . . um . . . Ideofon. It seems important. No one knows what Ideofon means."

KS:    I like the fact that in phonetic English it just kind of sounds like an idea over the phone. [Laughter]

JC:     I was given a link to several of your songs. There was you and Kevin. Was there any else involved in this upcoming album Finder’s Keep?

AF:    So for the most part, what you hear is just me and Kevin in our separate little bedrooms and home studios. I did the guitars, basses, keys—a lot of the keys—vocals, all that stuff. For the rhythms, it's a lot of drum machines, but we were lucky enough to get Jack Baker, who is the drummer for Bonobo. I don't know if you'd call them an electronic band . . .

KS:    Stemming from electronica.

AF:    Yeah, he is the drummer for the electronica band Bonobo. We were lucky enough to get him to play on a couple of tracks. So, on those songs, you hear actual real-life drums—that's Jack Baker recording stuff in a third separate space. It was all done remotely, mostly by just me and Kevin with some additional drums. Kevin, do you have anything you want to add?

KS:    Askil had a soloist, a vocalist on one of the tracks. Her name was Rosie James, a friend from Askil’s music school days. She just collaborated on one track, so we have a guest vocalist on one of the tracks, "Fast Love." Askil?

AF:    Yeah, we have a duet with one of my old classmates from uni on a yet-to-be-released single. And that's about it.

JC:     Okay. Now, let's talk about the single that you've chosen to release, "Bright White Light." What made you decide to release this one first to the public?

KS:    I'm curious about that too. [Laughs]

AF:    On this album, there's a lot of different places. There's a lot of different sounds and influences from different genres. Like, we're kind of moving from cinematic piano music into rock into electronic stuff to orchestral stuff. I think we wanted to start with something that was more ground level, familiar, rock-and-roll-ish, folkish—guitars, drums, bass, that whole thing—but that still also kind of represents our sound and our vibe, and the story that we're trying to tell with this music. So, you're kind of getting in on the ground floor. And then as we release more singles, you'll get different aspects of the music and the different styles that we're going to present.

KS:    I would like to add to that "Bright White Light" is the second track on the album, but it feels like a middle position because each song is a story in the album, which I love because it's not that common to do anymore these days. I like the fact that he chose "Bright White Light" because and I like how this part of the story is almost seeking in a way. I don't know how to say that correctly, but it's like the character of the story is seeking something and following the bright white light sort of thing. [To hear “Bright White Light,” click here.]

“Bright White Light” cover (2023)

 

JC:     There's two things I wanted to mention about it that I noticed when I was listening to it. One, that it's up-tempo. Out of all the songs I heard from you, this is one of the most up-tempo ones. And there's another interesting aspect—in the last quarter of the song, it's almost like Black Sabbath.

AF:    I think that ending in particular is not really inspired by any sort of hard rock; it just kind of happened because it was supposed to be sort of a harder-hitting ending. I wrote this song on an acoustic guitar just by itself, and back then when I wrote it, I was just like "Okay, we'll go a little bit more heavy here, and I'll just use some power chords and it will sound cool."

KS:    I think the Black Sabbath thing is my fault.

 [Laughter]

AF:    When I did the demo for Kevin, our process is that I usually record a basic demo, send it to him, he sends something back, and we go back and forth. I sent him a demo, and there was a little bit of a distortion in the guitars. There were some strings and cellos. I just wanted it to be big. And then he sent back this massive effing orchestra with huge strings, and there were trombones and distorted massive guitars. And it just ended up working even though it shouldn't have. It's so out of left field, but it sort of also encapsulates the sort of frustration in the lyrics. It really works as a climax, I think, partly because it's so unexpected.

JC:     Right. And as I also mentioned, this is one of the more up-tempo songs.  Did that play a part in you choosing that as a single?

AF:    Yeah, I would say so. We wanted to choose something that's was engaging to listen to even when you first listen. The kind of standard verse-chorus-verse structure, kind of a hook and a chorus, because not all the songs follow that kind of structure. So, yeah, it's one of the more common songs, I would say.

JC:     The link that was sent to me contained seven songs. Is that the entire album or is there more coming? Because I know the album isn't going to get released till November or October.

AF:    That's the whole length of the album, which is kind of intentional, as it's an introductory album. A lot of artists, I think, start out with EPs, usually having three or four songs. I wanted to make something that was a little more substantial than just a short EP, but I wouldn't say that we were ready for a full album either. So, seven tracks.

KS:    I think it was the material that dictated the amount.

AF:    Yeah. Seven tracks kind of felt like enough to tell the story that we wanted to tell without any filler tracks. And you can sit down for twenty-seven minutes, get through the whole thing, still hear a lot of different stuff, and go through the story. So, yeah, it's definitely intentional as a short first course in the stuff that we're going to do later.

JC:     What is the story that's going to be told in this album? I know you haven't released the album, but can I ask you about the story you're intending to tell?

AF:    I wouldn't say it's a concept album in that sense, if you think about something like Pink Floyd's The Wall. We're not doing that. There's a sort of thread that runs through all the songs that deal with themes of isolation—both physical and mental isolation— because this was made during COVID, so we were all separated. No one was able to interact with each other. There’s also mental isolation, and the fear of being hurt or not meeting people's expectations. All those different reasons you might have for choosing not to interact with people.

KS:    I just want to interject with the impression that I had from the beginning about that exact thing—the story of it—because the way you describe it is one element of it, but I also see it as this sort of journey. It’s a journey of a character, and when the listener is listening to the album, they are the character going on this journey, if that makes sense. So everything is being seen through the eyes of the character that Askil is putting together. And from the first song to the last song, you get imagery that includes the loneliness and the connection and the longing and stuff, but you're being led along and following along, from turbulent moments to beautiful moments, and it all seems kind of internal. It's like if you were to dive into somebody's head and then experience them falling in love, and also experience them feeling loneliness or seeing something that they can maybe get to. “Finders Keep," the next single that we're going to release, is one of my favorites.

AF:    The album tracks that journey from just sitting there by yourself and feeling kind of hopeless or like you're not going to be able to accomplish anything or connect with anyone, and then there's a lot of self-reflection as the album goes on. It's based on a lot of my personal experiences. One of the songs, the duet one, "Fast Love," is kind of like, "Okay, why aren't my romantic relationships working out?" It's very introspective. The song is just like if you were criticizing yourself and figuring out, "Okay, what am I doing wrong?"

A different track, "Landfill," asks the questions, "Why am I pulling away from these people? Why am I moving to a different country and just leaving everyone I know behind?" And then, when you get to the end of the album, you're kind of opening yourself up to the idea of "Okay, maybe it's – maybe I can afford to let someone in just to see what happens. What if I do try to get close to someone? Is it going to hurt me or am I going to be okay?" You're opening yourself up to that at the end. So yeah, it's definitely a journey that it takes you on.

JC:     So, this album isn't coming out until October or November. Is there anything you plan to do before releasing it to the public?

AF:    We're definitely going to release "Finders Keep" down the pipeline just due out in May. And a couple months after that, we're going to release "Fast Love," which is the duet song that I talked about. Then maybe after that we might do one more single. We're not sure yet. Nothing's quite set in stone. So, there's going to be a steady stream of singles leading up to the album, but it's such a short album, so a lot of the album is going to be out already by the time the album is released. And then, between those singles we'll do some music videos—  

KS:    Live shows.

AF:    Live shows for sure. We’re based in northern Norway—me and the other musicians in our band. We’re not that kind of central, so it's hard to go on a European tour. But we're looking at playing some gigs locally, maybe traveling to other places in Norway and Scandinavia. And then hopefully expanding out into Europe as well sometime in the coming year. Kevin, do you have anything?

KS:    Yeah, you pretty much covered it. I don't think I would have anything to add.

AF:    Askil here. Yeah, we're just getting started. So, this album was us learning how to make music in the way that we do. I feel like composing remotely, bouncing ideas back and forth—yeah, this is just kind of an introduction, and we have a lot more stuff coming as well.

KS:    I also plan on going to Norway to do some production up there and tracking later on, probably late summer, maybe even early autumn. I'm not sure yet.

JC:     Okay. So, I guess some final words. What would you say about this journey that's just the beginning? Do you want to add any comments on that?

KS:    I'll start it off. I mean, personally for me, it's rare to find a musician who is as enthusiastic as I am about releasing and finishing and going forward. And the excitement I feel about what Askil is doing is creating music which is not the way that is most popular these days, where anybody with a laptop and a signal generator, or a beat generator, or a sampler is splicing together stuff and making soundtrack kind of music, where it's interesting and it's technically cool but it's not musically thoughtful. Ideofon has a sound, it has a thing, and it pulls you in.

AF:    I realize that working in the way that we do has become a lot more common—really ever since the internet became a thing, but also during COVID where we all just had to learn to collaborate remotely. And for us it was definitely challenging to learn how to do that efficiently, but I feel like we also cracked the code on how to do that. Whatever we do next—if it's going to be a couple of singles or an album—we know how to make the most of the work that we do, how to do it efficiently, and also how to improve on what we've done before, where we can do all the stuff that works well with working remotely.

KS:    That's what I was alluding to earlier. Askil, you can do what you do really well. I can do what I do, and you trust that. And going forward, we don't have to figure any of that stuff out. It's all established, and we can just make music and really enjoy the shit out of it. [Laughs]

 

A Very Candid Conversation with Dusty Bo

  

Dusty Bo (2021)

 

Guitarist Dusty Bo started his musical career in his native Kentucky where he formed a Southern rock band, Bolt Action Thrill. In 2008, Bolt Action Thrill moved to Los Angeles and played plenty of live shows in LA. The band broke up around 2012 and Dusty Bo joined the metal band, Future Villains. Eventually, Future Villains fell apart as well. When Dusty had enough of the band situation, he decided to venture on his own.

His first solo project is The Vulture & The Fox (2022). Dusty defines the musical genre as “alternative Southern rock.” The music is best described as metal combined with Southern rock lyrics. In addition to the alternative Southern rock, the album also contains some gentle acoustic pieces. The Vulture & The Fox is also a concept album about the Fox, a gunslinger, and his horse, the Vulture.

At the time of this writing, Dusty is embarking on his first solo tour. In addition to the logistics of doing a solo tour, Dusty is playing venues he has never played before and to an audience that has never heard him before.

I had spoken to Dusty just before he started his solo tour, and in this candid conversation, we cover his concerns and thoughts regarding his solo tour. We also discuss his previous bands, Bolt Action Thrill and Future Villains. In addition, we talk about The Vulture & The Fox and the concept of “alternative Southern Rock.” I want to thank Nichole Peters-Good from Jensen Communications and Get Good PR for setting up the interview with Dusty. Most of all, I want to thank Dusty for sharing what is a crucial turning point in his music career.

Jeff Cramer: All right. So what got you started in music?  

Dusty Bo: When I was seven years old, my parents took my brother and me to see Earth, Wind & Fire and I vividly remember the bass player. He was the one I had my eyes on. I can’t remember his name, but he was a tall guy with dreadlocks. And he and all the other guitarists came to the center of the stage and were just jamming on these guitars. I was thinking, That looks like a lot of fun. I told my parents that I wanted one for Christmas. And we went to this toy store, and I picked up this toy guitar where you pushed the buttons and it made noise and whatnot. I asked for that for Christmas, and then they ended up getting me a real guitar, thank God. [Laughs] So, I started early. I got the bug early.                                                             

JC: Well, it's interesting you mentioned Earth, Wind & Fire because the music you've done is very different from Earth, Wind & Fire. 

DB: Yeah, things have changed a little bit. But I’m still a big fan of them.

JC: So, originally, you started a Southern rock band in your own home state of Kentucky.

DB: Bolt Action Thrill.

JC: Yeah, tell me about it.

DB: Oh. So yeah, that was about 2008 or 2009. We were just kind of a hard rock band here in Louisville and had a little bit of blues to us. We wanted to be like Guns N’ Roses and Mötley Crüe. And then when we moved to LA, we kind of started shaping into more of a Southern thing, more of a Black Crowes, ZZ Top. There wasn’t really many people out there playing Southern rock kind of tunes, so we stood out. Girls would come to our shows dressed up like in cowgirl hats and boots and stuff. We had this thing called the Bourbon Bus. We’d have a pre-party at our rehearsal, and we’d get a keg of beer and a bunch of booze. We rented a school bus that would pick us up from the pre-party and bring us to the gig and then bring us back to the after-party. So, it was a lot of fun. [To hear Bolt Action Thrill’s “Trouble,” click here.]

JC: I understand you played in one other band before going solo.

DB: Yes, Future Villains. That happened around 2012 when Bolt Action Thrill was kind of falling apart a bit. I was in that band for about six years—did a few tours and a few international tours and recorded an EP. Yeah, I also had a lot of fun with those guys too. [To hear a Future Villains’ live performance of “Down the Drain Blues,” click here.]

 

Future Villains (2017) (Dusty second from right)

 

JC: So, what made you decide to go solo?

DB: I got tired of my bands falling to shit for reasons that I couldn't control. I was putting in a lot of work, and people either kept quitting or they kept throwing wrenches in the mix. Deadlines weren’t being met. And it just drove me crazy putting in all that work and then it failing because of somebody else. It’s such a sensitive entity because even if you just break it down to the simple things like rehearsals and photo shoots, it takes one person out of the four people to mess up a photo. With booking rehearsal schedules, it’s like you’re dealing with a lot of different schedules, and different personalities, and different things and there’s just drama.

So I was like, “If I do this on my own, then the only person I have to keep in check is me.” [Laughs] “I’ve always been a pretty easy guy to work with. I always wanted to be in a band, and I didn’t even want to be a singer. I started singing because I couldn’t find a singer when I was trying to start my first band. But I just like to play, man. I like to play, I like to write, I like to create. And I can do those things without having anybody getting in my way or telling me no.

 

Dusty Bo (2020)

 

JC: Now, the interesting thing is you came up with “alternate Southern rock.” Explain how this is different than traditional Southern rock.

DB: That’s a really good question. When you think of Southern rock bands, you think of ZZ Top, Skynyrd, the Marshall Tucker Band, Black Crowes. And it’s usually pretty organic. There’s guitars and a little extra instrumentation here and there with key. And I guess it’s more kind of bluesy. A lot of the structures of the songs and the progressions are pretty simple and similar.

Some of mine are simple, but some of them are kind of complicated or kind of complex where there is bluesy singing on top of a heavy-metal kind of progression or guitar riff. Also the way we made it sound sonically on the record.

JC: Well, it’s interesting because when I listened to the album, The Vulture & The Fox, and the first few tracks—“Throw It All Away,” “The Conductor,” and “Bandit,”—I was immediately drawn to the metal guitar in those songs. Your guitar playing reminded me of Tom Morello from Rage Against the Machine.

DB: Oh, wow. [To hear the live versions of “Throw It All Away,” click here, and a performance of “The Conductor,” click here. For a video for “Bandit,” click here.]

JC: Yeah. But it was almost like where Rage would be doing their own political lyrics against a metal background, you were singing these Western lyrics against a metal background.  So I guess in a way that was how I saw it as alternative Southern rock. How did you come up with the concept and that sound?

DB: I was hanging out with one of my good buddies who actually cowrote the song “No One Else” that’s on the album. My friend’s a big fan of Spaghetti Westerns, and I like them too. One night, we were watching Tombstone and I just had this idea: “What if we wrote just a batch of songs that kind of told a story about a Western town or something? And it had a crime syndicate.” He loved it. We never really got around to sitting down and writing all those songs together.

But one day, when I started writing “On With the Ride,” I was like “Okay, this feels like something, like it would be setting this very Western-sounding story.” So, I was like, “Okay, this is kind of what the concept’s going to be. It’s going to be about this gunfighter moving out to the Wild West, but it’s also stories that are about me.” Because when I was twenty-one, I moved out to California with my band because often two guitar players are referred to as “guitar slingers,” so it’s kind of like gunslingers. So, that’s kind of what I was going for there. [To hear “On With The Ride,” click here.]

JC: What’s interesting about the album is “On With the Ride” is the opening track, and songs similar to “On With the Ride” are the next few songs. At that moment I think, “Oh, I know where this whole album is going.” Then all of a sudden, a different musical direction takes place, and I say to myself, “Wait a minute. This isn’t the alternative Southern rock I’d been listening to.”

DB: [Laughs] Yeah. It takes a turn. I was budgeting for a comic book, or a short graphic novel to go along with the record, but that’s having to get put on hold for good reasons because we’re going on tour, and that’s what we’ve been wanting to do for the last few years.

So I’ll tell the concept in a nutshell. The story is this: the Fox is the gunfighter and his horse’s name is Vulture. Hence the title, The Vulture & The Fox.

 

The Vulture & The Fox album cover (2022)

 

 

But then Fox moves out West, and he gets caught up with this crime syndicate that wants him to work for them. They end up turning on him, and the conductor is one of the guys that they hired to kill him. He gets into this gunfight and is shot down. His horse, Vulture, finds him and gets him to this girl, Mary Lou. And that’s where “The Red” kicks in. And then she kind of aids him back to life, and then he goes and scores his vengeance on the guys who tried to take him out.

And after that, he falls in love with this woman, and then he kind of gets caught up in a different kind of trouble with drinking and drugs. Eventually, he finds his way home at the end. I think it’ll speak to a good amount of people because it does touch base on some actual real-life issues and lessons to be learned.

JC: I want to discuss “The Red.” You had mentioned Spaghetti Westerns, and with the whistling on that song, I definitely hear the Spaghetti Western influence. [To hear “The Red,” click here.]

DB: Yeah. And it’s funny because that song was written before the concept came along, but it fit. That song was actually written with my friend Jamila Caro, who used to live in LA. “The Red” is one of my favorite songs I’ve ever written because it’s so different from anything I’ve ever written. That whistle at the beginning was a melody [sings melody] that Jamila came up with. I thought it was going to be a guitar part. I was kind of working on the arrangement a couple years after the song was written, and my buddy Luke said, “What if you whistle it?” And then I started whistling. I was like “This fits perfectly.” But I’ll tell you what. Whistling into a microphone in a studio is one thing. Whistling in the microphone for a show is so difficult without just getting a [blows air] into the actual microphone. And so I’m like “Damn, man—it’s such a big part of the song, and it’s so difficult to get it done and to do it properly.” It’s also tricky to do it live because there’s three guitar parts, not just the whistling. It’s one of my favorites on the record for sure, but unfortunately that one’s not going to be on the live set list.

JC: You had mentioned “No One Else” earlier, but I don’t hear anything about a Western in that song, but I do hear a lot of Hendrix influence in that one.

DB: He’s my guy, but when I started writing it, it wasn’t originally like Hendrix. When I started writing the guitar riffs, I already had the words for the chorus but with a totally different melody. And it was originally almost like a Maroon 5 kind of chorus. But then I started playing that Hendrix guitar riff and weirdly those words fit right on top of it—you know what I mean? The lyrics fit right on top of the riff and with the melody. I was like, “Okay, this is cool.” I love when the lyrics and the melody match the guitar part. I think that might be the first song I actually ever recorded where that happened. But yeah, when we were continuing to write it in preproduction, it was like, “Yeah, we should try to make this a very Hendrix-y kind of tune.” [To hear “No One Else,” click here.]

JC: I want to get into “All I Can Dream.” What I found interesting is the lyrics: “I’ve played some big stages and made some big wages.” How does that fit into the Western concept?

DB: Well, in the story . . .  I mean, the West is like a stagecoach and whatnot. There’re just different dimensions to it, though that lyric means something different in today’s time. [To hear a live version of “All I Can Dream,” click here.]

JC: Speaking of songs, the final track on The Vulture & The Fox, “Words Don’t Mean Much,” could fit into modern times. 

DB: Yeah, that one’s actually not part of the concept. So, that’s kind of like a when-the-credits-roll kind of thing. That’s the one that doesn’t have anything to do with the actual concept of it, and it talks about stuff that’s not in the story. [To hear a live version of “Words Don’t Mean Much,” click here.]

JC: In the song, the narrator sings about three things—religion, love, and politics—that once meant something but don’t mean anything more. I felt a personal connection to it because there was a time I believed in all three of them just as much as the narrator did, and now it doesn’t mean anything to me. And I’m guessing that’s what happened here with you.

DB: Yeah, man. I’m a confirmed Catholic. When I was in high school, I went to this program called Young Life, and it was very Christian-based and it really upset me later on when I would see how much some of these religion-based organizations would really try to hammer these rules and guidelines into children’s minds. I know a lot of people find peace and warmth and happiness in religion, and I don’t want to take that away from them. But I would like people to think more outside of the box for sure.

As for love, with women and relationships, men, whatever kind of relationship you’re in—whether it’s romantically or in a band or in a work relationship, whatever—pretty much the whole song is just kind of like, “Actions speak louder than words. Don’t believe everything you hear.”                                          

JC: The lyric that says, “I don’t listen to both sides”— I think that’s a very timely concept because I think a lot of American voters feel that way right now. As we are talking, a huge number of people don’t want either Trump or Biden to be running again.

DB: Yeah. And it’s not just them. It’s not just those two individuals, Trump or Biden. It’s all bullshit to me. It’s all to feed whatever narrative the media wants. I know personally about one company, which I can’t name or really give much detail about, that paid off the media to say that this other company is going out of business when it’s not true.

JC: Okay, now you’re getting ready for your first solo tour. Will this be the biggest tour you will be taking, or will be the same as your previous two groups?

DB: Well, the first tour the Future Villains went on was the biggest one I’ve been on so far. We did about twenty dates all throughout North America, and we were direct support for Steel Panther. So, we were playing anywhere from 1,000- to 3,000-person shows. So that was the biggest one I’ve been on.

On this solo tour, we’re not going to be playing to crowds that big. We’re going to be playing clubs and bars and breweries and smaller music halls and stuff. We’ve got ten shows coming up in July. And I think another twenty-something booked for September and October. And then, we’re going to be heading out West in November and December. We’ve been hit with some curveballs, just right in the crunch time this year. My original drummer can’t do the tour, so I had to scramble and call a good amount of folks to replace him. Going live, we play as a three-piece, so there’s a few songs, like “The Red,” that we can’t do live. “Find Me” is one we can’t really do because that has such a big female backing vocal in it. And “On With the Ride” has a big guitar harmony thing, and there’s a lot going on in that one and three people can’t do it justice. And I don’t want to play the tracks if it’s not really necessary right now. But an acoustic version of one of those tunes might pop up every once in a while.

 

Poster for a July show with Dusty (2022)

I like to play to a room. I’ve never played many of these venues before. And I know if some of them have restaurants and bars and there’s people sitting down. If there’s a dozen or so people having dinner and just kind of chilling, I don’t want to come out of the gates blasting with “The Conductor” when I could do stuff a little more low-down and kind of ease people into the rock-and-roll mood instead of just kicking the door down. Obviously, we’ll check with the venues to see if we should just add more dynamic to the show too. But if there’s some people who want to hear more soft country, singer-songwriter kind of stuff, then I’ve got that in my pocket too. If it were up to me, I would do that either at the beginning or the middle of most shows. I like coming out of the gates blasting with some hard rock tunes, but I love a show with good dynamics, when there’s a change in pace and it kind of gives everybody’s ears and heartrates a break for a minute.

This is going to be people who have never really heard my music. We’ll be throwing a good amount of covers out there, too, in some of these places because I’m never above that. As much as I love playing my own songs, I also really like playing some of the classics.

JC: You mentioned “The Conductor” as not being an appropriate opener for your tour. Do you ever think you might play at a place where it will be appropriate?

DB: Well, time will tell. [Laughs] We’ll find out. I mean, it hasn’t scared anybody away just yet. I mean, it’s very surprising how that’s been a favorite of people. A lot of women like that song as much as lot of guys like that one because it’s just really hard rocking and screaming. That’s my booking agent’s favorite song, and she’s a rocker. But yeah, we’ll see. I hope they’re okay with it. [Laughs]

JC: Looking back on it, first starting in Kentucky and then now ready to do your first solo tour. What’s your feeling been on this whole journey? 

DB: Oh, man. It’s really difficult doing things on my own as a solo artist. And I’m fortunate enough to have guys who want to play with me. It’s different because when you’re in a band and you have your other invested band members—the guys that play with me—and it’s not to say they’re not invested—but I pay them to play my songs. I’m not one of those guys that’s like, “No, you’ve got to play it exactly like it is on the record.” I’m not a dictator with it or nothing. But it is kind of like I am steering the ship.

And so, it’s got its pros and its cons, man, to be honest. I really love being able to keep the momentum going. I’ve done a pretty good job with that, and I’ve been really fortunate to have people like Nichole of PR who connected us, and Shirley, my booking agent. Without Nichole and without Shirley, I don’t want to say I would have fucking called it quits, but I definitely would not be as well off as I am with these things that we have happening right now. You’ve kind of got to have a team. I don’t know anybody who could do it completely on their own. Maybe Prince. It’s tough, man, doing the solo thing. It’s a lot to worry about because you have to make a lot of decisions. There’s a lot of pressure, there’s a lot of stress, and a lot of responsibility. Financially, I’m not just paying my band, but it’s like whenever I I need anything—I need merch or a tour vehicle—that’s all on me. Recording time. All of that is self-funded.

So, it’s a lot. I’ve legitimately put in everything that I can to it, and the reward is just getting to do it. I get some money from whatever and I get paid for gigs, but the reward is just being able to create the art and then record it, document it, and then perform it, and then bring it to people and hopefully move them in one way or another.

 

Dusty (2021)

 

 

A Very Candid Conversation with Kevin Godley

 

Kevin Godley (year unknown)

 

A drummer, singer, songwriter, and music video director. Kevin Godley has done them all and with great success. From 1964 to 1972, Kevin played in various bands with Lol Creme, Graham Gouldman, and Eric Stewart. In 1972, the four formed the rock band 10cc, and Kevin sang and played drums. The band was a unique creation: Eric and Graham were pop focused, while Kevin and Lol were more experimental and daring. 10cc had success with three Top 10 UK albums and nine Top 40 singles. In 1975, one of 10cc’s singles, “I’m Not In Love,” reached number 1 in England, Canada, and Ireland, and number 2 in America. The song was a perfect combination of Eric and Graham’s pop styling with Kevin and Lol’s adventurous side. Like Queen’s “Bohemian Rhapsody,” this involved a lot of work in the recording studio to make an incredible original sound.

Despite 10cc’s success, Kevin and Lol found themselves at a musical crossroads with Eric and Graham. In 1977, Kevin and Lol split from 10cc and formed the duo Godley & Creme. Godley & Creme had a very experimental music sound and a wide spectrum. (Listen to “I Pity Inanimate Objects” and “H.E.A.V.E.N / A Little Piece of Heaven”.) They made a music video for their single “An Englishman in New York” and enjoyed the creative process. This began their career as music video directors. Some of the artists they directed were the Police, Duran Duran, Culture Club, Peter Gabriel, and George Harrison. Godley & Creme's 1985 single “Cry” showcases their culmination as both music video directors and musical pioneers. In the music video, they used an imaginative technique that showed different faces morphing into each other as they sang the song lyrics. (Michael Jackson used a similar technique in his “Black or White” video in 1991.)

During his time with Godley & Creme, Kevin got to do several solo projects on his own. In 1985, he was asked to film Fashion Aid, the UK fashion industry’s version of Live Aid.  Then in 1988, Godley & Creme both felt it was time to take a break from each other and so they parted ways. Kevin continued in film and shot a short film with actress Dawn French called Mother Earth for Ark, an environmental group that Kevin belonged to. In 1990, Kevin was behind the One World One Voice project. Kevin created a musical track and sent it to multiple artists around the world who put their own contribution to the track. The project was intended to raise awareness for the environment.

Kevin had a successful career directing music videos for a variety of artists including U2, Sting, Bryan Adams, Phil Collins, and Eric Clapton. In 2020, Kevin released his first solo album, Muscle Memory. For the album, Kevin publicly invited musicians to send him pieces of music, and then Kevin added lyrics and melodies to the music pieces. Many musicians who have been around as long as Kevin may have long reached the end of their musical inspiration, but Kevin remains as musically inspired as he was in his earlier years. Recently, Cherry Red Records came across material that Kevin recorded with Lol Creme in 1969 as a duo under the alias Frabjoy and Runcible Spoon. The duo’s material, recorded before they joined 10cc, will be released to the public in June 2022.

In this candid conversation, we cover this long journey from Kevin’s beginning days with Lol Creme, 10cc, Godley & Creme (both their music and music videos) and Kevin’s life after splitting with Lol. I want to thank Billy James from Glass Onyon PR for setting up this interview, but most of all, I want to thank Kevin for telling his story to a huge fan such as myself

Jeff Cramer: Okay, Kevin, what began your interest in music?

Kevin Godley: That's a big question. I imagine like most kids and teenagers are today, you tap into what other people are doing, and what looks like an interesting thing to do when you're not at school. And at that time, it was being in a band. Obviously, there was no internet or video games, so people wanted to be in a band, and I attempted to do that.

My first instinct was to try to play the guitar. But I was bloody awful at guitar, even though I ended up in a very small local band playing bass using a six-string guitar. But I was even worse at that. It was only when my next-door neighbor got a drum set. He let me sit down behind it and that was when I discovered I was in fact a drummer. And everything changed from that point.

JC: I understand there is something you did with Lol Creme, I believe before 10cc. Can you talk about that?

KG: Yeah, I haven't got the list of tracks in front of me, but if I remember correctly, I think it was a combination of demos that we cut. This was toward the end of the 1960s, probably over at Graham Gouldman's house, and a few tracks that were produced by Giorgio Gomelsky. After, we did a track for Marmalade, which was his label, I sang a song called “Fly Away,” which is one of Godley & Creme's first songs. [To hear “Fly Away,” click here.]

He signed us up to do an album and called us Frabjoy and Runcible Spoon. Bit of a mouthful, isn't it? We were hauled down to London to do some sessions for a proposed album that never materialized. I think Marmalade just fell to pieces financially at some point for whatever reason. The record was never actually released.

A little bit of archaeology took place at Cherry Red Records, and they discovered the existence of all this stuff and asked if we wouldn't mind if they put it out as an album, which is cool after all these years.

 

Frabjous Days album cover (2022) (Kevin left)

JC: Since this was before 10cc, how was Graham involved?

 KG: Yeah, I mean, the Manchester music scene was pretty small. Back in those days, Graham was a friend. He'd already been very successful as a songwriter, and he was mentoring us. We were art students at the time, and we started writing songs. Graham said, "Okay, come over to my parents’ house and we'll record them," which we did on numerous occasions. There were no real studios in Manchester at that time at all. Our knowledge of recording procedures was actually nil, and we were being guided by Graham. It was fun, and it was more enjoyable than studying for graphic design, which was what we both did.

JC: From 10cc’s first album to your most recent album, there's a lot of imagination there. All these original ideas, where do they come from?

KG: Where do they come from? I have no idea. Like anything else if you're doing something and you're keen on it, I guess you magnetize them toward you. If there's an innate talent, in your capability, it gradually blossoms over the years. And the more you enjoy writing, and the more you enjoy singing or playing, it's a series of small steps, one after the other, but mixing with musicians.

JC: The first 10cc album has doo-wop. Could you talk about that?

KG: Yeah, I think when you're young, you're starting off and writing and recording stuff, you don't really have much of a clue who you are. You've probably not found your own voice yet. Out of necessity to a degree, you are aping your heroes because you think that's what good music sounds like.

We were influenced by the Beatles, the Beach Boys, and Simon & Garfunkel, and all the really great writers and performers of that era. I think it made good sense for us to imitate them, because we didn't have that many reference points with regard to what was to come.

But of course, when you do that, you record it, and you listen back, you slowly begin to realize it doesn't really sound like the Beatles, or the Beach Boys or Simon & Garfunkel. It sounds like something else and it's beginning to sound like you. So, one doesn't want to become too self-conscious about that. It's a matter of just letting it happen.

But I think the big turning point was when we recorded our first album. We didn't have a great deal of time to do it. I think we had about three or four weeks, both to write and record songs, so we just did it. There was no time to pause and say, "Oh, does that sound like what I think music should sound like?" We just wrote it, recorded it, moved on to the next shot, and wrote something and recorded it without thinking too much. Which turned out to be an incredibly valuable thing because when the album was finished, again, we listened back and we thought it sure didn’t sound like anything else. It was a revelation, it was like, "Oh, that's us. That's not them, it’s us."

 

10cc, 1974( Kevin standing in middle)

JC: Of course, “I'm Not in Love,” 10cc’s hugest hit, not only doesn’t sound like anyone else, but I've never heard anybody else attempt what you guys did with “I'm Not in Love.”

KG: We'd already recorded the track once, and not very well. We recorded it as a cheesy bossa nova—it was terrible so we shelved it. But we knew that the song was good; we just felt that the treatment was a bit shit. At a certain point, during the recording of the album, we came back to it and we were talking about how we should approach it.

And I think I said, probably out of desperation, “Why don't we do it all with voices?” And that seemed to strike a chord with everybody, and all we had to really do was figure out how to do the voices. I think all of them suggested that we use tape loops. And we tried that. It took quite a while to do, as you can imagine. I think it was Lol, Graham, and myself went in the studio and went through the scales, just singing notes. And then they were turned into tape loops and fed back onto the 16 track or 24 track tape machine. And then each of those notes was routed through to the multitrack desk and to the channel. We ended up playing the console, playing the desk as one would play a keyboard, although they were faders instead of notes, faders instead of keys. 

And still we had no idea if this was going to work or not. But once we'd figured out that was the only way we could do it—and we actually did it—it began to take on the shape that you're familiar with.

JC: I understand part of your drumming on that song was meant to stimulate a heartbeat. Is that correct?

KG: We put down a piano and we put down the drum that you were talking about, which is like a heartbeat. It's actually a monophonic Moog [a Moog is a synthesizer].

No drums at all. We decided to record the basic backing track in the control room, not in the live area, just so we could all be next to each other and feel it. And it was incredible. Once we'd done our first pass of vocals using that technique, we felt that we had something special. And remarkably, every other session to do with that particular song yielded something that made the track better. That doesn't happen very often.

Often you record something and you call something good. And the next thing we try may not work and something else is a bit crappy, so you try something else. But with this particular one, everything that we tried made it sound better. And better. And better. And when it was finished, it was like we knew we had something very, very strong and very, very strange. It was quite long. I think it was about six-and-a-half minutes long.

We didn't really think of it as a single initially, which is why “Life Is a Minestrone” was the first single off The Original Soundtrack. But it had to be a single . . . it just had to be a single. We didn't edit it. It came out as a long segment. And the rest is history. It was a magical phase. [To hear the classic “I’m Not in Love,” click here.]

JC: Very shortly after that, you left 10cc, and formed Godley & Creme. Can you talk about that?

KG: Yeah, Lol and I invented this device that we nicknamed “the Gizmo” even before 10cc existed because we liked the sound of an orchestra. But hiring an orchestra and arranger was a really big number and an expensive one. We figured because a guitar is a stringed instrument that maybe there's a way of playing it that gets it to sound like an orchestra. Hence our early experiments with an electric drilled piece of rubber on the end of it to try and get it to sound like strings. And we eventually found ourselves at the Manchester College of Science and Technology with a guy called John McConnell who built us a prototype of the Gizmo, but we never really got to play with it that much in the context of 10cc.

At a certain point, there was a hiatus between albums, so Lol and I thought, “Well, let's book a couple of weeks to experiment to see what this thing can actually do.” Which is pretty much what we did. And we had a lot of fun doing it. I think around about that time, it was becoming a little bit more obvious that Eric and Graham's work and Lol and I's were kind of different.

We were making music from two different perspectives. Lol and I were art students, who have more of an experimental frame of mind, whereas Graham and Eric were more of a sort of classic songwriter frame of mind. Our thrills would gain by breaking new ground whenever we could. Whereas I think their thrills was more about making something perfect and continuing what we already knew worked. It’s a little black and white, but that's what it was like.

Those couple of weeks at Strawberry studios was the first time we had a chance to try stuff on our own. And we were getting off on it so much so me and Lol suggested, "Listen, guys, let's just take a break from 10cc—just give us a few months, two or three months and let us do this. Let's put it out as a single album, and then we'll come back together and do 10cc."

But it didn't work out because we had a road crew, and we had to record an album for the label. It wasn't practical for the business of 10cc at that time, unfortunately. And I don't think we were mature enough as individuals to understand that sometimes you need to step away to try different things so you can learn different things and then bring them back to the table.

That was not on the cards, unfortunately. We were young, and so we decided to bail. Actually, I know it's sad, it needn’t be like that, but it was.

 

Godley & Creme (year unknown) (Kevin on right) 

JC: In addition to recording your own music, you and Lol wore a new hat as well: you became music video directors. What began the whole interest in being a music video director?

KG: Certainly, we were art students, which is a great environment to be in prior to 10cc, etc. And one thing that we both bought into while we were in art college and what we learned was to challenge yourself. Don't stop when you do something good because you know it's good. Always look further, always go further. We enjoyed being in art college—it was a buzz, it was a very creative environment with a lot, and we were good at what we did.

Also Godley & Creme, the artists, weren't touring. We weren't playing live at all. But we made an album for our record label Polydor. One of the tracks called “An Englishman in New York” was about to be released as a single. We figured perhaps we could make a little film to go with it because maybe that was one practical way of promoting it, and maybe some programs in Europe or the UK may show it.

But it was all we could think of at the time. We approached the label with an idea for the film. And, surprisingly, they said yes, and to go ahead and make it, but they didn't allow us to direct it. Because we'd never directed anything before, they hired a proper director to direct it. During the process, we were performing—essentially enjoying the process—and a light bulb went off over our heads.

It joined the dots between art school and music. It was like, “Wow, this is amazing.” We could do this. We knew inherently we could do it. I think we must have been a total pain in the ass. Derek Burbidge was the director—he directed a few clips for the Police—but we kept insisting “Can we try this? Can we do this?” and we showed up at the edit room and asked him to “Press this button, push this lever.” I mean, as I said, we must have been a total pain, but during shooting and editing we assimilated enough to know that we could do this. And what happened next was we essentially got the credit for that even though that particular piece of work is not 100 percent ours. But we did influence the finished thing. [To watch “An Englishman in New York” video, click here.]

Steve Strange had formed Visage and they had signed with Polydor at that time. Now, we knew Steve from the clubs in London. When he joined Polydor and they were discussing making a video, he wanted us to direct the video. In fact, he insisted that we directed the video, which was “Fade to Grey.” That was our first professional engagement as video directors. It turned out to be quite an influential piece of film. [To watch the “Fade to Grey” video, click here.]

And suddenly, we were professional video directors as well as artists. We didn't know 100 percent what we were doing, but rather like when we were making the first 10cc album, there's that sense of “Well, that's okay.” We didn’t want to know everything about what we were doing because then it's a foregone conclusion what we’d end up with. You've got these two experimental minds coming up with ideas for this new medium, pretty much called “music video.”

That was at the time a very open and free industry. It’s not that it wasn't a proper industry yet, but nobody really knew what a music video was. It came to people like us to do what we wanted to do, which was brilliant.

JC: And actually, as a young kid watching MTV, that was the first time I heard of you because you were directing a lot of videos that people on MTV would mention you and Lol’s name. When you guys did “Cry,” I was like, “Wow, I didn't know these guys were musicians.”

Then I saw the “Cry” video and it left an impression. It must have left an impression with Michael Jackson because he used the faces changing in his “Black and White” video.

KG: Well, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. The funny thing is the faces-changing idea wasn't the first idea we had for the “Cry” video. Our first idea for “Cry” was to get two very popular ice skaters, Torvill and Dean, to ice skate to the track. Because Lol and I weren't pop stars, we didn't look like pop stars particularly. And we weren't that keen of being in it really. 

But unfortunately, Torvill and Dean weren't around when the film was needed. We couldn’t find a time when they were available, so we had to come up with something else fast. We realized it was a song that anyone could sing and feel. We thought, “Well, why don't we do that? Why don't we just pick a lot of faces out of a casting book and every one of them can lip sync to the song, film it and see what we can knock about that?”

It's a funny thing, but I think most people when they make any form of film, financially speaking and practically speaking, it probably has to be as nailed down as possible. But Lol and I still always insist on there being an area of exploration. And the edit process, because it's more like making music where there has to be room for the God-given mistake.

And that's what happened here. We put everyone in front of the camera, and they all sang it. Then we went into the editing and started cutting between the faces, and it was okay. And then we started mixing between the faces. And that was okay. I mean, if you’ll notice that maybe the first 45 seconds or so, it's very simple.

We're just going from face to face. It was only after that amount of time when we discovered that if we used this very simple device called a wipe, we can open out from the middle of the picture or come down from the top or up from the bottom, or go from side to side. We did that, and you get a new face on the way from face A to face B, which was like, “Whoa, that person doesn't exist except for that moment in time.” And that was a magical moment. We took it forward from that place, and it made the record a hit, I'm convinced. [To see the “Cry” video, click here.]

JC: Yeah, one of the things when you said everyone could sing the song, that was true back then and true today. Although when you did “Cry,” the term “ghost” hadn’t existed yet in the dating world. Yet whenever I got ghosted or someone I knew got ghosted, the lyric in “Cry” comes to mind: “You don't even know how to say goodbye.” And I feel that lyric really describes why being ghosted really hurts. In today’s dating world, there's new technology, but still the emotions are the same.

KG: Yeah, that's interesting. The song itself took 15 years to write. We had the first two or three lines, way back. It was only when we met Trevor Horn, our producer, when the song started. We played what we had, which must have been about 30 seconds worth. He said, "Well, let's go work on that."

Horn was working with J. J. Jeczalik of the Art of Noise, who put together a kind of a backing track and mood. And then I went in the studio and started singing to it with what we had, and improvised a lot of the track. Bit by bit we tried things that sounded good and then moved on to the next bit. And it was extraordinary—it came together relatively quickly. But it wasn't written as a complete song ever.

It was 30 seconds that existed and the rest was put together in a recording studio with one of the finest producers in the business, Trevor Horn. The line you mentioned—I think was one of the lines that just seemed to scan about. And funny how things actually work . . . they don't always work the way you think they work.

JC: Now, you and Lol would eventually split up and go your separate paths.

KG: In total, I think we've worked together for about 27 years. For the majority of that time, it was absolutely brilliant. But I think it got to a point where we knew what each of us was thinking. And we knew where things would go when we started it. That element of surprise was withering a little bit. I'd been asked to do a number of projects on my own. In 1985, I was asked to film the Fashion Aid—the UK fashion industry's version of Live Aid—at the Royal Albert Hall because I mixed in fashion circles in those days.

That wasn't something that Lol was remotely interested in, so I got to do that on my own. And I enjoyed it. It was the first thing I'd done on my own. And, subsequently, I joined or helped found along with Chrissie Hynde of the Pretenders, my wife and numerous other people very early an environmental pressure group called Ark. In 1988, I made a short film for them starring Dawn French called Mother Earth. [To watch the film, click here.] It was on my own again, and I thoroughly enjoyed the experience of not having to answer to anybody.

I think that those two experiences probably more than anything else contributed to us breaking up. At the same time, we were due to do a movie. We were about to go into pre-production and it didn't happen. It was such a shame, and had it have happened, our story may have been different. But unfortunately, it didn't happen and that was a little bit of a blow. It made sense for us to part ways at that point, but it was tricky. I was so used to asking Lol, “What do you think about this?” I  had enough confidence to move forward from that point. And I think I've read a couple of times that Lol in interviews agrees, that it was probably the right thing to do at the time.

JC: I mean, along with the Mother Earth video and Fashion Aid, what have you done since on your own?

KG: Well, I did One World One Voice. Essentially, it was a musical chain letter. And every artist from around the world showed up to play with this idea. We started a piece of music in New York staying with a film crew, and we took up pieces of music around the world to different cities and had other people contribute to it. We filmed them doing so. You should check it out, it's interesting. [To watch the film One World One Voice, click here.]

I also filmed U2 live—I forgot what country it was—but it was for the Zoo TV tour. And I've done lots of music videos, including for U2, and many other artists. I've written a couple of screenplays, I would like to do direct, so I've been a busy boy.

JC: What encouraged you to decide this time to do your solo album Muscle Memory? How did that all come together?

KG: I just felt like making music again. What happened was a couple of people who I didn't know got in touch with me out of the blue and sent me two pieces of music, and said, "Would you be interested in turning this piece of music into a song? Write top line and write a melody and write some lyrics. "And I've never done that before. I tried it and it worked very well. I enjoyed doing it.

I'd only played drums, which isn't the ideal instrument to write songs to. And I missed the process of creating music. I figured that if I were to ask people to send me pieces of instrumental music online that they thought that could become songs, I would choose a bunch of them and turn them into songs, and share the copyright of that particular piece of work with the person assembling the music.

And that's the bottom line. I received probably about 296 pieces of music, which shocked me. I was expecting about maybe 20 or 50 or something. I had to go through every piece of music and try ideas out, which was difficult at first, but I eventually discovered an intuitive process again—what was going to work for me, and worked on the tracks I felt that I could contribute something interesting. It wasn't enormously different to sitting opposite someone with a guitar or keyboard or writing songs. It just meant that I didn't have to get up and make coffee every half hour. And I would put something down in GarageBand [a music studio software], mix it roughly, and then send it off to them while waiting for comments and take it from there. It reminded me of the first 10cc album, and I found my own voice through doing this. And there was all sorts of shit going on while doing this. I remember that terrible incident that took place in Charlottesville.

I was working on a track at the time, and I kept stopping and watching the TV. It really affected me, and that song became the track, “All Bones are White.” I don't know, I jumped into the mood of the time with the lyrical side of things. [To hear “All Bones are White,” click here.]

 

Muscle Memory album cover (2020)

 

JC: Well, one of the tracks on the album was “Song of Hate.” The song lyrics indicate hate all right, but the music accompanying it is upbeat.

KG: Yeah, I know, that is funny. If you think about it—and I always go back to this example—I know people who have played the Police's, “Every Breath You Take” at weddings because it sounds great. But when you analyze the words, it's about mistrust, it’s about surveillance, and it's quite fucking dark.

It just doesn't quite make sense. And you are right, “Song of Hate” has a sort of a Motown swing. I'm not into genres. I'm into mixing things up a little so that didn't bother me. And that was the one people asked me about. [To hear called “Song of Hate,” click here.] Another one was called “Five Minutes Alone.”

JC: Oh, yes, I know that track.

KG: What did the lyric mean to you? What does it say to you?

JC: I guess it says to me what someone could, given the limited amount of time I have, this is what I can do in this type of time. I mean, that's just my guess. But then again, I thought the lyrics “I’m Not In Love” were literal that the singer wasn’t really in love and of course, he really is.

KG: Yeah. I guess that's what most people say. But the inspiration for it was a horrible idea. I mean, a lot of the stuff on the album I was gazing into the future a bit, but not that far into the future. I have this despicable image in my mind of a consortium of global prison officers who have this site on the dark web where you could book time to spend five minutes alone with a prisoner of your choice. And in this case, the song was a prisoner who kidnapped and murdered somebody that the singer loves as a child. The singer is taking advantage of the opportunity for him and his friend of having five minutes alone to do what they will with this particular prisoner. It’s pretty a vile thought, and it's not that obvious in the lyrics. But now I've told you, listen to it again. It's funny . . . some people I know have a great deal of difficulty writing lyrics. And it's the part I like least about songwriting process. But I believe if you're going to use words, make them count. [To hear “Five Minutes Alone,” click here.]

JC: I understand you recently did a music video as well as the solo album.

KG: Have you heard of the English band the Charlatans?

JC: I've heard of them. I can't say I've listened to them, but I've heard the name.

KG: Okay, so I've worked with the Charlatans a while ago. I was approached by the singer Tim Burgess. Tim’s a very talented guy who asked if I'd do a video for this track he was about to release. I thought, “Yeah, it'd be fun to actually commit something to film again.” The song is called, “Here Comes the Weekend,” by Tim Burgess.

I had this idea about using projections—a digital laser projector—but using it in a different way. I wanted to film performance, but not everybody at the same time. What we just filmed onto a big, white background and then have the rest of the band perform live in front of it—that was essentially the idea. The finished thing would be a mixture of projected images, and live images, the thought being that you wouldn't always necessarily understand which was which.

It was a great shoot. Again, it was one of those situations where I had a good team of people. I had the tools that I needed, and I'd given myself the freedom to be able to try things that I had written down. In other words, if some idea came up on the day, I'd give it a shot. And everyone's great. Tim gave a me great performance stuff and understood inherently what I was trying to achieve.

I got some of the stuff I also edited it myself. I'm trying to become more adept for the technical side as opposed to just being the guy who sits in the chair bossing everybody about and I thoroughly enjoy it. It's exhausting, but I thoroughly enjoyed the whole process. It was great fun. It turned out extremely well. It's very simple, but it's just got something about it.

Probably because Tim and his band were great in performance and they look great on camera, and we just captured something special with a very simple idea. No postproduction effects whatsoever. The outcome was lovely and it was a great day. You should check it out. {To watch “Here Comes the Weekend” video, click here.]

JC: There are talented people who have been at it long as you, but they’re tapped out creatively. But with your recent stuff—the album Muscle Memory and your recent music video—you are far from tapping out. It sounds like you have a lot still to say. Well, how do you feel about that?

KG: Yes, I would agree with you. I have a number of projects I’d love to get out there. Doing this is what drives me. It’s what gets me up in the morning. I don't rest on my laurels, if I've got any, I get a thrill. It's always been the same. I guess it's all about coming up with an idea. And it's selfish in a way—it's an idea that I want to see exist or hear exist.

If I feel strongly enough about it, I will go to the ends of the earth to make that happen. And if I can't, what tends to happen every now and again is that an opportunity will arise that will allow me to make it happen within a different context. And that happens quite a lot. But I get a thrill out of making something that I think is a good idea, but I'm also aware that I don't know exactly how it's going to turn out.

 And that little element of jeopardy is the thing that drives me. I want to see what this guy does with it. I mean, they make the best out of the idea, and 85 to 90 percent I’m usually on the money and it usually comes out pretty well. And I love it. It gets me up in the morning. What else am I going to do?

 

Kevin (2021)